tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC December 9, 2014 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
moment for the top can be one harrowing quest, indeed. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> you also have to work the dark side, if you will, spend time in the shadows and the intelligence world. >> the senate report on bush era torture has been released and we now know just how dark the dark side was. not only was there more torture, but their campaign was to keep awe e all of it in the shadows. >> this program was morally, legally and add min stratively misguided. >> what did president bush go? >> tonight, my exclusive interview with colonel lawrence wilkerson and one of the c.i.a. officers who interrogated prisoners at a black siet. she became the darling of the
right wing. "all in" starts right you will 2340. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. after five years of work and a long battle over declassification, the senate select committee on intelligence today finally released its extensive report on the c.i.a.'s tension and interrogation program and it is damning, indeed. the heavily redacted 500 page summary on the committee's findings represents this country's first official reckoning with the torture regime operating by the u.s. from 2001 to 2009. it shows that torture carried out by the c.i.a. was far more brutal, far more widespread on far more shakier legal dwround
than the agency had previously represented. the c.i.a. willfully misled media out lets, lawmakersened e, national security officials and the white house about the extent of the program and its effectiveness. the senator with chilling details about how the c.i.a. treated it e its destiny. we learned threats to sexually abuse the mother of a detainee and to cut a detainee mother's throat. we learned that two detainees were subjected to positions including being shackled in a position for extended periods of time with broken bones in their feet. we learned that one c.i.a. official played russian roulette and another played with a gun and a power drill.
five were subjected to rectal rehydration or feeding through the rectum with no medical necessity, including one whose lunch tray was pure rayed and rectally infused. we learned that a c.i.a. officer who contributed to death, likely from hype therm ya, was later given a cash award, $2500 for his consistently superior work. ed besides the astounding browalty, at one point, two detainees were subjected to sleep deprivation until the c.i.a. confirmed that these two men had, in fact, been trying to contact the agency for weeks to inform the agency on what they believe for impending attacks. in other word, we tortured people who were trying to help us. perhaps most disturbingly, the c.i.a. program made the
unsettling discovery about who we know very little. 26 of the 119 detainees did not meet the legal standard for detention and should not have etch been there in the first place. the c.i.a. explains to congress the c.i.a. would not have found it. the report found a majority of accurate intelligence leading to bin laden came from sources
outside the krvmt i.a. program and, the most accurate information was provided prior to the c.i.a. subjecting the detainee to enhanced interrogation techniques. >> history will judge us by our commitment to a just society governed by law and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say never again. vice president joe biden applauded the reports released today. >> i think it's a badge of honor, every country, every country has engaged in activities somewhere along the line that it has not been proud of. think about it. namely another country has been prepared to stand up and say this was a mistakement we should not have done what we've done. and we will not do it again. >> this is a new york times peter baker report.
the officials won't take side between the cia and the senate and the way the interrogations worked. senator john mccain mounted a stirring defense from the senate floor. >> i know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners were produced more bad than good intelligence. most of all, i know the use of torture compromises that which most distinguishes us from our enemies. our belief that all people, even captured enemies, possess basic human rights which are protected by international conventions the united states not only joined, but, for the most part, offered. >> the c.i.a., while acknowledging short comings and mistakes is pushing back oon aspects of the report, including the idea the c.i.a. misled about
the effectiveness of the program. the current c.i.a. director argued the program was, in fact, effective. writing quote\, interrogations of detainees on whom enhanced interrogation techniques are infused did help twart plans and save lives. intelligence gains the programs were critical to our understanding about al-qaida and continues to inform to this day. six former deputy directors also weighed in with an op ed in the wall street journal reading we designed at a time when welat n relationship building dee who did not attend behad e head dabts. yet, it was clear they possessed information they could disrupt plots and save american lives. the c.i.a. still has its defenders among the political class including, not surprisingly, the two top officials including the president.
nicole wallace who receivabled in the bush administration had this to say in releasing this morning. >> there were three people who we thought knew about attack and we did whatever we had to do. and i pray to god that until the epd of time, we'll do whatever we have to do. and then e the notion that this somehow makes america less great is asinine and dangerous. >> florida senator marco rubio stated that his position today tweeting those who served us in the aftermath of 9/ 11 deserve our thanks that now places american lives in danger. republican senator richard burr who is set to take over chairman ship of that committee. saw the torture report as purely political saying the only motive here could be to embarrass george w. bush.
your reaction to the action. do you feel as if we made progrez in reckoning with this period or are we back where we were ten years ago. >> i think the latter, chris. i don't think even though this might bring a modicum of accountability to some of the people at the top, some of the people you named, i don't think anything would really be done. whatever punitive effects there is to it, will be whitewashed, will not be accomplished.
of the c.i.a., should the american people believe the c.i.a. when this is one-sided. e, don't listen to this. this is another disservice to the agency, chris. there are a lot of good people at the agency. there are just as many people i would submit if you could do a survey, there would be more people who are aeng to see the agencies name and these people who have done these sorts of things cleared out. anxious to see some sort of accountability. anxious to get their hands cleaned to get the agency's hands cleaned and to get onto business with the c. imt a. the way things should do. this is not an agency that is out there, you know, cowering in the dark wondering as mcglocglin and others have said. if it has a future. this is a group of people who would like to do their duty to their country and to their mission. they like to get this stuff off
of their hands. >> stlfs one thing that i have to ask you about. this is in the summary that we got today. an internal c.i.a. e-mail noted the white house is extremely concerned secretary powell would blow his stack if he were to be briefed on what was going on. you're working for secretary powell at that time. your reaction to ha? >> i'm sure that's probably the case. i got to see him. i worked for him over 12 years. and i got to see him blow his stack worse than he'd ever blown it before. at the c.i.a. with george tenant and john mcgloughin. he took me into a room and told me to cut about 25% of the presentation he was e he was going to give out. told me to take it out because he was worthless. he was even worried that it wasn't accurate. within a few minutes, george tenant showed up with the spell-binding news that the operative had revealed under sbir gags he said.
no revealing that he was being tortured at the time. >> within a week to ten days, this is the kind of thing that was happening when i was out at the c.i.a. for five days and nights when even now trying to tell the american people that they were confident and telling the truth. >> so i just want to clarify. you didn't know that the secretary of the program, it looks like tommy rice didn't know about the program. there were a lot of people at the highest levels of government in the executive branch who did not read into the fact that we were torturing people. >> i think that's true. i'll go out on a limb who said the only person who was completely read in. but the one who had e has read
in the need for the law to cover their rear ends and the need to continue the program because it was effective was richard bruce cheney. he was the man in the 145 doe shadows orchestrating all of this. >> the story the c.i.a. sold the bhiet house and the american people and the effectiveness for the interrogation program, that's ahead.
become a member of kaiser permanente. because together, we thrive. ♪ one detailed report from president bush 2006. according to the c.i.a. records, the president expressed discomfort. clothed in a diaper and forced to go to the bathroom on himself. four years later, this is the president in the ole e oval office. >> these alternative methods you talked about in terms of extracting information from these suspected terrorists. were you made personally aware of all of the techniques that were used, for example, dpamand
you approve all of those techniques? >> i told our people get nfgsz without torture and was assured by our justice department that we were not torturing. >> it's been reported that with khalid sheik muhammad, that he was water boarded. >> i'm not going to talk about techniques we use on people. >> i'm not going to talk about that. >> i'm not going to ask you specifically to say about it. if were used, are you at all concerned that even if you get results, there's a blurring the lines fween ourselves and the people that are trying to protect ourselves against? >> matt, i'm just telling you, what this government has done is to take steps necessary to protect you and your family. you asked me about your family. and you rep zebtresent a lot ofr people. and the best information we can get is from people we take off the battlefield so we can act on it. so we can stop plots before they happen.
and whatever we have done is legal. that's why i'm saying it. it's in the law. we had lawyers look at it and say mr. president, this is lawful. that's all i can tell you. i'm not going to tell you specificationly what's done. i don't want the enemy to adjust. we're at war. this is people that want to come and kill your families. and the best way to protect you is to get information. and i'm confident the american people understand why we've done that. you see, we've acted on information they've given us to prevent attacks. and these are real. this isn't make believe. >> more on the story and the krchlt c.i.a. and the bush administration we're seal e selling in the media next. 6 azure, and office 365, the team can gain real time insights and instantly share information around the globe. when every millisecond counts, staying competitive begins with the cloud.
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one of the striking things about the newly released report is the lepgtsds the agency went to about the effectiveness on the torture program. the investigation paints the picture the agency and misinformation to willfully mislead the people. regarding the operation and effectiveness of the c e c.i.a.'s effectiveness and interrogation program.
>> about the effectiveness of c.i.a. interrogation being provided by the c. a. to policymaker at the time. the policymakers are the one getting inaccurate information. c.i.a. director michael hayden said he'd never be selected to the committee. >> so when diane finestein says you lied, is she lying? >> i'll go so far as to say she's incorrect. i mean, lying, lying is intentionally, intentionally misleading someone. all right. let me make another distinction. telling people something they don't want to hear is not the same thing as telling people something that is untrue. >> the investigation includes an entire 37 page section dedicated solely to inconsistencies in a single 2007 appearance commit e committee. for example, the senator asked hayden and e and did any c. imt
a. personnel express allegations about interrogations being used. i'm not aware of any. these guys are more experienced. . no. >> the report knows that statement is incon grutkocongru c.i.a. records. they express reservations over zubayda. several on the team profoundly affected. some to the point of tears and choking up. an e-mail points away from the detention site if the decision is made to continue with enhanced interrogation techniques. he's also aware of making 40 other statements. former reporter for the washington post, we did a lot of reporter on the war on terror. it's so striking. what emerges from this and in some ways that push back after the fact that the uil or cia saves looifrs.
. >> everything they did, saved lives, all the information they got was very valuable. it led them to other terrorists and it led them to e osama bin laden in the end. they haven't put forward any evidence to show that. it's been a lot for many, many years. they've been successful. the idea that they've now come out again on this huge push, this huge publicity campaign to beat back an actual record showing inconsistencies and discrepancies. >> we should be clear. it provides the raw materials for this report. the one argument folks in the c.i.a. are making that seems to
me persuasive is we are being hung out to dry here. we are ordered by the president of the united states to stay e do this. we did it. sure, we weren't equipped to. it was wanted by the american people who were thirsty for vengeance and terrified. it was signed off and briefed to legislative leaders. and now you guys all want to put this on us. it's the battle c.i.a. what do you think of that argument. >> the c.i.a. is a government agency and there's oversight of that government agency. there's a lot of things they need to do. for this report, 2009, when the committee decided to do this, they decided to do this because there was evidence the c. imt a. destroyed materials on the interrogations. >> it's not evidence. it's not even we know that. they destroyed evidence of these interrogations. >> and, in fact, they had lied to congress about it. congress didn't even know the tapes existed when they found out they'd been destroyed. that's why the committee we believe the went ahead with this investigation.
a few years later down the road, what they agreed to, from a part san perspective of what republicans and democrats agreed to, they were just going to investigate the c.i.a. it's focused on the c.i.a. and its actions. it gives us one narrow perspective just on the c. imt a. opportunity e dunt it make it an important perspective? are there other perspectives. does e do we really need to know what congress needed to authorize and what they really knew? absolutely. but codo we need to know what t c.i.a. itch lech implemented? absolutely. >> i'm going to talk to a former c.i.a. officer who wrote a book on it. >> you interrogate him. he's this top al-qaida member. he can help us find al-qaida.
the cia initially and wrongly believed to be an important al-qaida official. zubaydah spent 266 hours in a coffin-sized confinement box and told the only way he would leave the facility is in the coffin-shaped box. typically kept naked, sleep deprived and subted to waterer boarding. despite his hysterical pleas for mercy, zubaydah became so compliant, he would put himself in to position to be water boarded when his interrogator raised his eyebrow and snapped his fingers twice. he used to represent zubaydah and this seems like a broken human being. is that the man you represented? is there anyone there left to charge or run through a legal process.
>> i have to be somewhat cautious around client sensitivities. but i can say heel e he and other torture survivors who work with suffer the prediblgtble consequences which is to shatter people, to break them. >> rectal hydration which is a form of adepreggressive sexual assault. >> this term i've encountered before in my life. it sounds like forest feeding down the tube. it's simply a means of degrading somehow. >> clearly. that is the point of this interrogation program. it's so many of these brutal, stay e sadistic, torture techniques. people watching this saying these people are associated with people who murdered three e 3,000 americans. and whether it was wrong or not, i'm going not going to sit here
and feel a whole lot of sympathy for your clients. >> i don't necessarily ask them to have sympathy for our clients. i expect them to have sympathy for a democracy and torture is the an tithesis of what democracies do. that's why torture has been banned universally for dozens of years. >> and, yet, it's surprisingly popular: have the torturers in some senses won the last 13 years? i hope not. this is a long-waiting process. but they will come. >> these two men are still in get-mo, correct? >> yes. >> how long will they be there? >> well, zuba yurksydah is a de
d detainee person in that cat goir who the goeft thinks is too dangerous to release. >> well, they've tried, but they tortured him. >> yes, in some sense. >> so, in some dark place, he 345i have to leave in a blax box. we also have someone who is on the other side of this who worked in the interrogation program, wrote a book about it. glen carl joins me now. glen, can we start with the black sites that are part, a huge part of this. these are spread across the world, some in afghanistan, some in poland. can you walk me through -- >> what is a black site? is it in a basement? what's it like? >> sure, i'll tell you. but i wouldn't say i'm only the other side of this. i'm on the same side, i believe, as gentlemen, and you who are just speaking.
a black site is a secret facility that black is a term of art in the c.i.a. which means clandestine. unknown, unannounced secret. so a black site is a secret site so that no one would know where they were. >> and you were asked -- you were given a detainee and told earlier in the days in this program that he was an al-qaida person and you need to get what you could out of him and you were told that you could use torture. >> well, the word torture is never used. people are careful. i could never bring myself to use -- i was stunned from the first seconds. we heard president bush quote\ed on your segment a few minutes ago, the government decided what one can do and said this is not torture. but if you define something as you want it, then you can call it what you will. and that's what happens. so no one ever used officially and formal, professional conversations that i heard the word torture. >> but they did use enhanced
interrogation techniques. oh e. >> oh, yeah, sure. and there was no question, to me, and i think to many of my colleagues what this was. sure. >> you resisted. you said i'm not going to do this. what was your -- what were colleagues saying. i'm so fascinated reading this report. you can't pull down the front line operators and ajents who are working in this? e. what are people saying to each other? are you getting drinks late at night. >> i think you will always have a range of views in any institutions. all of the above, what you've described. in general, the culture is we have given the assignment of a quasi military culture. it's not a debating soe ining s where you say what about this, what about that. discussion to debate arguments on how to say something or
whether it should be done once it's prepared. then there's little discussion. if you challenge something like that, you're viewed as insubordinainsu insubordinate. i was told a number of times i was discussing religious issues which are quiet relevant as we are the infidel to the jihadist. i was discussing theology and i was told, listen, we rbt e aren't engaging in ecology. that's sort of shaping the culture of discussion or lack there of. >> there's so mume reports that this sbt e isn't working. and they're just goating the message. keep pressing. >> oh,well, i was involved in an infill nit number of surreal moments. one spechx one. this actually happened. this sounds unbelievable.
it's like a skit, but it's not funny in the least. i was told to ask a certain question. so i did. and the answer was essentially, by the fellow, i don't know. my assessment was that he was being truthful. he said he doesn't know. my assessment was that he's being truthful. the response from headquarters was the fact that he has not answered the question proves that he is withholding information and/or lying. therefore, we must press him hard, which is completely insane. and i thought i was dealing with an idiot. i found out that was actually formal instructions guided from the white house. >> thank you, sir. what if one of the eyewitnesss that sabt e saisarn prosecuting attorney put before the grand jury wasn't everyone there when michael brown was shot. e6 unr a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday.
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and then he looked like a football player with his head down, charging at officer wilson. charged at him "like a football player with his head down charging." that michael brown, you know, was charging like a football player full force on officer wilson. one wnitness described it as charging at officer wilson like a football player with his head down. don't charge him with a foo
ballplayer with your head down. >> one of the thou sapsands of s is of a particular witness of mike brown when he charmgs like a football player towards officer wilson. it's a detailed acount that's described in a piece of evidence called witness 40 journal entry. the cop just stood there and dang if that kid didn't start running at the officer like a football player, head down. >> it's showing you how abnormal, how strange, this whole process was. there that same journal entry, here's how she described found herself on august 9th, saturday, 8:00 a.m. i'm going to take my random drive. need to understand the black race better so i stop calling
blacks "n" word and start calling them people. rjt . >> we blacked out part of the n word in that graphic we just showed you but it was clearly written. witness 40 woke up on august 9th and decided that on that, of all morning, reason e randomly will dri drive to a black neighborhood. she tells a story that basically backs up the idea of aufrgs wilson and use of force. on october 22nd the f.b.i. conducted an 1:38 interview in which the questioners performed t turned out to be a methodical kperpt of her account.
minute imvest gags was played for the jury. that is how witness 40 journal entry also mades its way into evidence. it looks a lot like someone asserting zero quality control and leaving the grand jury drowning under a sea of conflicting information. >> it happens to take into account that bolster's officer darren wilson. >> witness number 40. the big kid turned around, had his arms out with an attitude. thes just stood there. dama dang, in if that kid didn't
start running at the cop like a football player with his head down. >> you've read this. you've read the testimony. do you even think, as a lawyer, what do you think of this testimony? >> well, the weirdest thing was the first thing in the journal entry. i don't know about you, but just the facts, forget the dissection. it didn't sound like any journal entry i'd ever seen or heard of. they're refleblgted. it's no, oh, i felt this way or no, i felt that way. no commentary at all. it was like i saw x. then it's, like, crazy. and you silt there and you read this, this just does not even have the vaguest sense of truth. >> this is how we get to the whole process. at one level, yea e yes. he gave them the evidence. he had this one to testify.
he played interrogation that seem to completely knock her story aside. why not just save everyone the time? >> he obviously did not exercise any judgment what so ever. >> that's the answer. it's one thing to use judgment without mentioning all the things that undermine her and throw it up on the news. it's another thing to just sort of go oh, here you go. you decide. the point is, judgments about credibility, the kinds of judgements, prosecutors are making all of the time. you don't just say hey, this person came into our office. they had a scrap of paper. we any they might be crazy. but we're going to show it to you.
one of the reasons i think that ferguson took off the way it did is precisely because it was emblematic of a much bigger problem. black men being shot by cops all over the place. and that's often justifiable circumstances. at the same time, it's completely bizarre. and that's the road we trod to get here. >> it seems to be an essentially invebt e vented account. >> it sounds to me you could say i was there, all right, come on in. >> to be witness 41. woe're committed to giving you all the evidence.
>> former public defender david feiga, thank you for being here. >> over the past few weeks, it makes me wonder if we really are a nation of laws. my thoughts, next. music, and 6 hf video playing. (singing) and five golden rings! ha, i see what you did... (singing) four calling birds...three french hens... (the guys starts to fizzle out) two... turtle... doves... i really went for it there ya you did... you really, really did now get 3 gigs of data on one line for $65 a month. switch to at&t, buy a new smartphone and get $150 credit per line.
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here we go, here we go, here we go. ♪ fifty omaha set hut ♪ losing feeling in my toes ♪ ♪ nothing beats that new car smell ♪ ♪ chicken parm you taste so good ♪ ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm first and foremost, we are a nation built on law. >> we are a nation of laws and we must enforce our laws. >> we are also a nation of laws. >> america is a nation of laws, which means i, as the president,
am obligated to enforce the law. >> we're a nation of law, a nation of civil right. >> when praising our country, presidents love to invoke that we are a nation of law. john adams appears in the constitution that he helped right. it refers to a government of laws and not of men. i mean, for example, e just a minute, the current military regime, just oversaw the reversal of former dictator's conviction for the murder of 00 dleds of protesters and in proceedings that are all legal in some narrow, technical sense, but were widely viewed has an out right chant. and its's safe to say no americans are russianing to call e jipt a model for the rule of law.
apply them equally. a nation of laws is one where the law acts as a great equalizer by restraining those in power. and ensuring that etch the most marginalized societies can get a fair shake in court. sure, the u.s. is flawed and places where justice is miscarried, but fundamentally, the u.s. really is a nation of laws. i have to say tgs git is gettin harder and harder to hold onto that faith.
and then, last week, we all watched as a police officer who put a man in a choke hold, diemt, no charges what so ever. we don't even know if he's going to be fired. today, we have 600 pages documenting the torture carried out and authorized by a wide viert of officials, up to and including the president and the vice pet. documenting activities that are, on their face, out laws torture specifically mentioning acts committed outside the u.s. by a u.s. national. no one will face prosecution for those crimes. michael vick didn't do to dogs what many of them faced.
it ask not depend on whether people committing the crime is depending on who's doipg it. can ye choke a man to death? it depends on who's doing it. can you anally rape someone with a tube and threaten to rape his mother all without legal consequence? well, you see, it depends obama who on who's doing it. >> one of the authors for this entire, sick chapter currently serves as a federal judge reasonedering interpretations on the law. does that sound like a nation of laws? or does it sound more like the cynical maturization.
if you want to defend torture, by all means, go ahead. but, please, i'm begging you, spare me any sermons about the law ever, ever again. that is "all in" for this evening. . >> good evening, chris. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us at this hour. ten weeks before barack obama was elected president of the united states, 2000 e8, 10 weeks before that, this man died. his name was urie nosenko. i apologize this is an old and really great picture of him. there aren't many great pictures of him. that's because he lived a deliberately mysterious life. he had been a spy, a kgb agent. but when